Hybrid Gouldians?

[Diane]

Got an email from a yahoo genetics group Im part of and Ive asked permission to post the information here.
Just as a side note the skynet link isnt working, I have sent an email to Daniel Wildemeersch on the 24th of May, but no reply as yet.

I am posting an email below, which I received on 6.13.11, concerning Gouldian Hybrids. This information will help us identify Gouldian Hybrids and hopefully preserve pure Gouldian stock in the USA.

Here are some tips for identifying Gouldian hybrids:

1) Check the bird close to the tail and neck for absence of color separation lines and for non-gouldian coloring.
2) Check the way the bird fly and stands, some times more like a parrot finch than a gouldian.
3) In Ino Hybrids, check the tail for pink coloring. However, the pink color can be masked by the Pastel Green Gouldian,
4) Check for "new " head colors like blue, brown and more...
5) Check with DNA testing, which is only sure method for testing.
6) Breed to a Green Gouldian to test for any hidden genes.
7) Know you're the reputation of your breeder source.

Here is the 6.13.11 email as follows:

<Hi ........,

I wanted to make you aware of a potential threatening issue of the pure gouldian gene in the USA due to hybridization.

Parrot finches and gouldians have very similar genetic code and unfortunately can create fertile hybrids. In Europe some of those hybrids are bred and sold as gouldian mutations because of their unique coloring. There are breeders that do that just to make $ because the birds look uniquely different and do not require a full molt to show coloring thus can be sold way faster as soon as the mouth markings are gone. This can infect the pure gouldians and the wild genes of "normal greens" can be forever lost!

The first and second generation of those hybrids can be visually detected by checking the bird close to the tail and neck for absence of color separation lines and for non-gouldian coloring. Also the way the bird fly and stands reminds some times more a parrot finch than a gouldian.

For more information and pictures of European gouldian X parrot finch hybrids check the parrot finch hybrid section here:
http://users.skynet.be/fa398872/navfram.en.htm

For many years overseas there are gouldians X parrot finch hybrids that are being sold as gouldian mutations. More specifically there are breeders overseas that breed the lutino mutation of the blue faced parrot finch with ___________ gouldians.

The first generation of hybrids has a very light pink tail but crossing this hybrid back to a ________ gouldian any visible parrot finch signs are virtually eliminated. The new hybrid bird has red eyes and birds like that are sold as lutinos in many countries, including Spain and Belgium.

Also the second generation hybrid can be made using a first generation hybrid (that comes from lutino parrot finch X ________crossed this time with a _____________. In that case depending on the head mutation there can be "new " head colors like blue, brown and more...then the breeder can breed it with different color gouldians to make splits to the "new" color eliminating the parrot finch hybrid % in each breeding.

I have talked to people overseas that gave me the example of dogs and wolves to justify the hybridization in gouldians. I strongly disagree but that does not prevent them from breeding hybrids to gouldians. The hybridization in other species, for example canaries X goldfinches does not produce fertile offspring. unfortunately the parrot finches seem to be so close to the gouldians genetically that the offspring can be fertile...

In all the cases above I am not aware of a certain way to definitely prove that a bird is a hybrid unless someone DNA examines it. I am not sure if the USDA importation process checks for hybrids but there is always a possibility some hybrids to enter the USA somehow and mix with the gouldians already here...and that could mean the end of the gouldian finch the way we know it today. I guess the only thing I can do is to be prepared. So just in case I am keeping pairs of "normals," orange head, red head and black head, all of them green back and purple breasts.

Note: I have edited the method for producing Gouldian Ino Hybrids to read as blank. I do not want to encourage the breeding of Gouldian Hybrids in the USA. While responsible breeders would keep Gouldian hybrids separated from pure Gouldian stock, other breeder would not.

[Craig52]

Hi Di,i think that is unbelievable,but it must be happening overseas.Some of those overseas pics we have seen on here of lutino gouldians could be the result of this,who knows.
There is one problem now with putting a topic up like this,it may alert some unscruplist? breeders to try and do the same thing here to get new mutations into gouldians eg lutino's Craig

[Diane]

There is one problem now with putting a topic up like this,it may alert some unscruplist? breeders to try and do the same thing here to get new mutations into gouldians eg lutino's Craig

That why the original sender left the blanks in the email, and anyone who would do such a thing is probably already doing it and probably know far more about it than detailed here already.
There are, or was when the Erythura site was operating, pictures of hybrid gouldians on there that have been in place for as long as I can remember. It seems this practice is becoming more widespread now.

Forewarned is forearmed

[gouldianpaul]

The lure of the almighty dollar...it makes me sick the extent some people go to in order to breed birds purely for money.

There will come a point when people will only buy from breeders they personally know.....otherwise it will be too difficult to know if you are being ripped off or not.

The sad part is the poor behaviour of a few results in everyone being judged as crooks.

In a weird way it almost seems like a blessing that Australia has such strong import/export restrictions...otherwise these problems would already be here.

Cheers
Paul

[finchbreeder]

I am curious about the "Check the bird close to the tail and neck for absence of color separation lines" As I have breed a Gouldian cock in last seasons lot that has no black seperation under the chin. He is all yellow there. I know he is genuine Gouldian (to the extent that anyone can without DNA) because his father is from a line my mother has been breeding for many years, and his mother is one that came from Finchers uncle. And both are people who would abhour such Hybridizing. Perhaps this is not a good indicator? But just one of those things that is a little more common in the Hybrid? I kept this boy to breed from because he was different. But so far he has not breed for me.
LML

[ColouredFeathers]

Its very sad to read about hybrid gouldians one of the most beautiful birds in
the world and you get same twisted greedy mad shifty people that ruin a beautiful bird
cheers flavio.

[Tiaris]

I really think that Gouldian hybrids are very scarce though. Especially considering they are very commonly kept & bred including in mixed collections with parrotfinches. I have only seen 2 Gouldian hybrids in my whole life and many thousands of non hybrid Gouldians. Both hybrids were Blue-faced PF & I don't know whether they were fertile or not but at that rate I don't think hybrids are a major threat to Australian stocks.

[Luís Lourenço]

Hi,

I don't had the slightest idea that gouldians x parrotfinches hybrids are fertile. I remember of reading something about gouldian hybrids, and says that the hybrids are infertile.
I know that the gouldian can hybridize with the blue faced parrotfinch, Fiji parrotfinch, tricolored parrotfinch and I think the red faced parrotfinch. This are the only cases that I know and is possible that other Erythrura species will hybridize with gouldian. But according with some breeders, the gouldian is a very difficult bird to mix with other species, so the hybrids are very rare, even in European shows.
And the problem of sold the hybrids as some "mutation" of gouldian, well, it's a pity. Gouldians are the most beatifull finch (at least for me it is) and the hybrids can't compete with such beauty ....
The ino (not lutino) gouldians doesnt have a connection to the hybrids I think. This mutation exist in Portugal at some time ago and in countries like Belgium and Netherland there must exist even a long time ago.
The ino combines with the blue mutation, creating the "ino blue", sometimes called (wrongly) albino.

[MadHatter]

I too find it difficult to imagine that many, if any, Gouldian x Parrot Finch hybrids are fertile.

[KENTUCKY]

Hi,as a rule Hybrids are infertile, Natures way of saying that this Mating is a distinct NO NO but, there are exception to the Rule,i e, a Red Siskin crossed with a Canary will
produce fertile Copper Hybrid Cocks and F1 Hens , of which some are fertile, from these Crosses Colour Bred Canaries were created.
The late Raymond John Murray, Co- Founder and Foundation President of The Avicultural Society of Australia believed that if a Gene can be transferred from one Spicies to another to the benefit Aviculture then it should be done,Ray and I have had some long Arguments as to why Spicies should be kept pure and not being polluted, Ray was the first Person to have Colour Bred Canaries in this Country, although I must confess that the appearance of Colour Bred instead of Colour Fed Canaries was a big leap forward and opened up a whole new World for Canary Breeders.
It would not surprise me that some one will try to artificially inseminate Gouldians with the Sperm of another Grass Finch for the sake of the almighty Dollar, its not a knew Practice.
In 1936, a Cross between a BH Gouldian Cock and Blue Parrot Finch Hen was recorded in Germany, the Skins of these Hybrids are kept on display in the Copenhagen
Museum.
Wether Gouldian Hybrids are fertile or infertile I cant say, as Tiaris quite rightly said, Hybbrids of this Nature are no thread to Aviculture in this Country, also never forget that delibertly crossing Native Spiecis in this Australia is illegal and can and will attract a hefty Fine.