Virkon-S + vitamins in drinking water - can be mixed or not?

[Finchy]

I have always assumed that when Virkon-S is in the drinking water (0.125%) vitamins should not be there as well. But I've just noticed that this has been pure assumption and I could be entirely wrong, so...

Is it OK to mix liquid vitamins in with low-dose Virkon-S drinking water? Has anyone done this on a regular basis? Any glaring reason not to do it?

Thanks.

[Tiaris]

Why put Virkon S in the drinking water at all?

[Finchy]

Why put Virkon S in the drinking water at all?

See here, third paragraph: http://www.fabulousfinch.com/how-to-spr ... birds.html

...but I only do it for ~2 days out of 10 rather than all the time, or if there's gastric illness, or when I am on holiday and have to leave water-changes in inexperienced hands.

But back to the question... Vitamins at the same time as Virkon-S, OK or not?

[Tiaris]

No is the answer to your question.
My question remains why would you be happy to have your birds deliberately ingest disinfectant from their water supply? This product is made of highly toxic chemicals which I don't doubt kill all the microscopic bugs claimed. It was never intended to be given as a drinking additive and I question that any chemical agents powerful enough to kill what it kills does not also destroy gut flora when fed in solution regularly to birds and have other toxicity effects on the birds ingesting it regularly.
You only have to see what contact with it does to human skin to be extremely cautious with it.
If MF wrote an article advising you to offer detol solution to your children as a drink, would you?

[Finchy]

Easy tiger.

It does seem like an odd thing to do and I appreciate all of your reservations because I have the same ones. However I have reached a mental compromise for practical purposes, the main one being that scrupulously clean drinking setups save finch lives. I have found nothing better for safely sanitising both bird equipment and upset bird tummies than Virkon-S.

Note that according to Rob Marshall (avian veterinarian and Gouldian guru), finch guts are sterile anyway - they retain no friendly gut flora. He sells a chemically similar product to Virkon-S that I think he calls KD - he just pitches it as a 'water additive/cleanser' and slaps a huge price tag on it, whereas Virkon-S is pitched as something else. (I use a probiotic afterwards anyway - hedging my bets!)

Vetafarm and other well-known birdy brands sell Chlorhexidine gluconate as a water additive. This is perhaps the most commonly used 'water cleanser' in bird keeping! It's a disinfectant too. They just don't label it that way!

An old-fashioned remedy for finches is even to use drops of chlorine bleach in their drinking water for two days...exactly as we use in our own domestic water supplies(!) only a stronger dose.

It's about dilution, moderation, compromise, the best middle road. I absolutely hate using chemicals of any kind and take pains to avoid doing so, but have come to appreciate the value of their judicious application. So...

Please don't just say "no" reactively, without offering a scientific justification. People mix vitamins all the time with most drinking water disinfectants ('water cleansers') with no issue. I just like to be cautious and consult others first before trying something new.

[gomer]

Finchy years ago I used to put it in the drinking water for a month or two over summer if putting in liquid seaweed occasionally.Now I know what type off algae is unwanted and I dont put anything in the drinking water except worming mixture or medicines. Although I have a small 250 ml drinker with liquid minerals etc available separately if wanted, sometimes I put in a few grains or a very small pinch of virkon s in it if I know I am going to be busy for a week or away for a week.

[vettepilot_6]

Also when I was a lad we used Condis Crystals...(I still have a jar) for cleansing water supplies...cant say I would do it these days...but I do sterilise all feed and drinking utensils on a regular basis with Virkon S...as for adding it to water if it works for you go for it....

[Loz_82]

Hi finchy

I've got an automated watering system for my aviaries. Its been installed for three years now and have had no problems with dirty and unclean water what so ever. Its flushed out three times a day and for only two minutes. They are situated in full sun at the front of the aviaries and I can honestly say that I only clean out the bowels when I worm my birds every 3-4 months. There has been no algae growth, bird droppings or rubbish in their water bowels at anytime to warrant using a chemical to keep them clean or even a scrubbing brush. The flushing of the bowels three times a day has 99% of the time given the birds a ready supply of clean fresh water. Ok the other 1% of the time I have to reprogram the controller due to power failures but this very rarely occurs. It dosen't mean I can rely 100% on the system I check everyday before and after work to make sure the bowels are filled with water. But it reassures me that one job is getting done consistantly.

The point I'm trying to make is (if I get there). If its possible I wouldn't be using a chemical to just be keeping the water supply clean if it can be helped. Alot of people have told me over the years KISS keep it simple stupid. The more natural products we can supply our birds "and ourselves for that matter" with, the easier it is for things to sort themselves out.

Like I said its just an opinion. A friend said a while ago about keeping birds we need to enjoy them and not just get bogged down with the endless task of feeding and husbandry routines.

Laurie.

[Tiaris]

My no is not simply reactive. Just common sense when both vitamin additives (intended for animal consumption) and Virkon S (not intended for animal consumption at all) both warn clearly to use as directed on the label. Combining already toxic chemicals with presumably non-toxic vitamins is a complete unknown as to possible further danger, although very likely hazardous when one is already highly questionable at best. It is very dodgy to selectively usea a small part of one person's science combined with another's highly speculative opinion and claim you are applying a science-based approach to "medicating" your birds.
I am not a chemist or a scientist, but I have received two separate 2nd person recommendations both originating from professional chemists to not use Virkon S in any food to be fed to birds regularly such is the toxicity of its chemical constituents. That'll do this tiger.

[TomDeGraaff]

Regular use of any oral or injected antibacterial, fungal, microbial chemical is risky in my book. It encourages development of resitant organisms. Even two days out of ten.

I am also surprised to learn that birds do not have gut flora. You learn something new every dau....