Are we Over medicating our birds?

[wagga]

Just found out that a number of very experienced finch breeders, who all have very large aviary complexes that are located in NSW, are following the same type of 'medication routine' as each other. For example worming all birds in the collection ever month whether or not their birds are showing any symptoms of worm infestation. Weekly medication routines include: Apple cider vinegar with garlic mixed in water, probiotics to replace live bacteria and yeasts to gut flora, coccidiocide solution for the prevention or the early treatment of coccidiosis, and more are using medications on a rotation program without physical evidence of disease.

"So, what is the problem" you might say? Remember that we all asked for advice when buying new birds. New people to aviculture look to these breeders for advice and try and replicate the same environment, diet etc. This is where the problem occurs when the owner of a large successful collection of birds provides advice on what must be done to breed their birds. Hence the cycle of misconceive bad advice begins.

Ask any bird breeder why they are using chemicals and the typical response would be "by providing a clean disease free environment will allow the birds to produce or maximise their breeding output for the breeding season".

Yes, we all should try to provide the very best of conditions to breed our birds successfully. I ask you when do we say enough is enough.

By giving our birds the best aviary conditions to suit the species and supplying a comprehensive diet most bird species will breed. In the perfect aviary the design, construction methods, low stock rates, reduce stress for the birds, providing a clean environment and ensuring that good quality food is given to our birds will help prevent most outbreaks of disease. Prevention is better than finding a cure. Treating the birds that actually show the symptoms of a known disease, seek Veterinarian advice and use the correct medication, if required, to treat your birds.

The over use of chemicals/medications has already created Avian Gastric Yeast (aka Megabacteria).

What will we do when the next outbreak of a pandemic disease occurs.

Al -Wagga

[Shane Gowland]

I'll agree with this.

Monthly poison ingestion and weekly doses of assorted chemicals can't be good for the immune system. I get that a lot of these birds are expensive and it's never nice to lose one, but sometimes you just have to let natural selection do its thing.

Addressing overcrowding issues is probably the first place we should look to improve health. The birds in the wild don't have anyone cleaning up after them or giving them drugs and they seem to be surviving just fine. Mostly.

[BrettB]

I do not disagree with the sentiment, but I think we need to be careful not to over generalise.

Apple cider vinegar with garlic mixed in water, probiotics to replace live bacteria and yeasts to gut flora, coccidiocide solution for the prevention or the early treatment of coccidiosis, and more are using medications on a rotation program without physical evidence of disease.

For instance, does providing slightly acidic water with a bit of garlic chucked in really put your birds at risk? Does it result in resistant pathogens that run the risk of causing problems down the track. I think it is unlikely. I see this intervention more as a management issue rather than a treatment.

Equally do probiotics do any harm. You could argue that the do not do any good, but apart from denting your wallet is there any evidence for detrimental effects ... I doubt it, we are eating bacteria all the time.

Anti cocci, anti bacteria, anti worm medications, yes. There is a risk that with repetitive use their will be the development of resistance and that when required these medications will have lost there punch, as has happened with many antibiotics over the years. However, the greater risk is with incorrect use. The wrong dose, the wrong frequency, the wrong duration are all far more likely to result in resistance, and how many of us are guilty of that?
This is the message I would like to get across, if you are going to do it, do it right. Half measures do more harm than none at all.

Cheers
Brett

[Tiaris]

Agree that worming monthly is over the top. ACV, garlic, etc are not medications as such & I doubt you could over dose by giving these regularly.
I routinely worm quarterly & cocci twice a year. From experience in my region any less results in flock-wide health issues. I'm especially a big fan of ACV regularly (twice a week) & don't believe that this is likely to be in any way harmful.

[COUNTRY CAPITAL]

I for one stick to seasonally(3 monthly) worming my birds.
my reasoning is this....by the time I find a sick bird in my aviary it is always to late to save them....to me this is my version of natural selection as previously mentioned.
sometimes I believe losses come from physical trauma's etc, other than disease-related causes so there will always be losses with or without medication.
if I had rare/expensive birds I may be more cautious but I try to provide as natural an environment as possible and let the birds do the rest.
maintenance/cleanliness etc is as important as medication in my view.
keeping vermin out for example.
good topic al

[elferoz777]

Short answer is for the most part yes.

I never medicate unless the bird us going down and haven't lost any in a while now.

Just reference blue gouldians and some type canaries to see what happens with too much meds.

[finchbreeder]

I also know of breeders in this area, who medicate monthly. They are the people whos birds do badly for purchasers. Why? Because they are medication dependant. I medicate, when I consider necessary. I do not have problems and I have had birds for over 30yrs. Each person must make their own decissions based on the advice they receive and there beliefs. But over use of anitbiotics in human and animal populations is proving to reduce their effectiveness.
LML

[mr skeeter]

i use apple cider vinegar/ garlic once a week at 5 ml per lt. i worm, every 3 months using 3 different wormers over 12 months the program is worm& bay cox then 9 days follow up again this has been very successful at keeping my birds healthy. if u have wild birds around ur yard u might carry worm eggs on your boots into your cages. i know of a top breeder in n s w who worms his birds monthly with great results. he breeds a lot of birds and always look healthy. in my opinion he is one of the best breeders in australia. its what works for you monthly or quarterly. cheers mick

[wagga]

I also know of breeders in this area, who medicate monthly. They are the people whos birds do badly for purchasers. Why? Because they are medication dependant. LML

Similar situation occurs over here too FB. For an example: I have a friend who does not regularly use a anti worming medication (used when required approach) and I consider him to be a "top shelf bird breeder".

The question should be also be asked "Why do some very successful breeders have in place a strict regime in their use of medications, vitamins, minerals and other supplements whilst other breeders only use a 'basic or standard' type of routine in place.

BrettB correctly stated

I think we need to be careful not to over generalise

I think the point I was trying to make and did not state was 'Are we over medicating our birds in the usage of Anti cocci, anti bacteria and anti worm medications'. The inclusion of the other supplements etc was to demonstrate how far some of us will try to provide the optimum conditions to allow our birds to breed. I must admit that these 'big' finch breeders have invested a huge amount of their time, money, daily activities or routines are all tailor around to suit their birds needs.

I was told once that 80% of birds are bred by 20% of breeders.

If you honestly think about it are you a 20% or a 80%.

Al

[finchbreeder]

I was told once that 80% of birds are bred by 20% of breeders.
Never a truer statement made. But for a variety of reasons. Many times it is the dedication of the breeder that makes this so. But sometimes it is an unexpected circumstance (rat etc.) that mucks things up. Or just plain lifes other commitments do not allow the time to be everything that we would like to be. I know I could do better, but running a business does not always allow the time I would like for the birds. I know many others who;s job committments are a problem for them too. (slightly off topic there, sorry)
LML