Hybrids or Mutations? Which is more damaging?

[Lonchura]

This is a topic I have real concerns and many questions about when it comes to breeding finches...Hybrids or Mutations?
Which is more damaging to our captive breeding populations of finches in Australia, if our bloodlines cannot be legally replenished?
Firstly, please let me say I breed several species containing feather mutations and I enjoy breeding them for their beautiful and Interesting colours, and I do appreciate the skills involved in developing these birds. I have never intentionally or accidentally cross bread any bird but... there is still that chance.

I am not pushing any particular view and the following statements are not intended to polarize or divide finch breeders. They are about the very popular and skilled area within aviculture, of breeding for colour mutations. I have noticed its increase in popularity over many years and I started to wonder with all this skill and knowledge, how Australian finch breeders could have lost so many species that were once so common.

I Personally have no firm opinions about people breeding mutations or cross-breeding finches yet, I think we as finch breeders need to be very careful that we do not lose the true normal/wild type finches from aviculture in Australia. By true normal/wild type, I mean a finch that is not split for any other colour that does not occur readily in the wild. The current trend in finch breeding seems to promote the development of new feather mutations and I see this has become a highly skilled process to create strong healthy offspring.

However, I have also noticed a decline in breeders keeping true normal/wild type finches and parrots. This has become more evident to me, as I try to source new blood for the Munias/Mannikins I breed. This decline has also been noted as I looked around many of the bird sales this year, to see if I could find a true normal/wild type Red-faced parrot finch, Java Sparrow or the inexpensive and supposedly common, wild type and size, grey Zebra finch. (It seems the majority of breeders have kept true normal/wild type finches in the past, though almost nobody seems to keep them now). I asked the few sellers that did have them, if they could guarantee their birds were not split for some form of feather mutation. Surprisingly, none I asked would.

Many questions arise, when I think about these trends. Please remember when reading the following, they are questions I personally do not have answers to. I am appealing to the combined wealth of knowledge and skills held by members of this forum, to help provide some information that may go towards answering my questions.I would like to think I am not the only breeder to ask these questions.

1. Are bird clubs/societies/groups providing finch breeders with sufficient information/education about the
advantages and disadvantages of mutations and hybridizing?
2. Why do so many breeders believe it is acceptable to develop mutations within a species or subspecies?
3. Why do so many breeders say it is taboo to hybridize /cross species, when so many breeders hybridize/cross
recognized sub-species?
4. Are there any statistics available that differentiate between feather mutations within a species and true
normal/wild type finches that are not known to be split for feather mutations?
5. Is there a group of like-minded breeders who endeavor to maintain true normal/wild type finches?
6. If so, how do others like-minded breeders identify them?
7. Is there a method of contacting them?

From what I understand, it appears breeding mutations of a species may be as damaging to the captive population of finches within Australia as breeding hybrids, if a sustainable true normal/wild type population is not monitored and maintained. Despite what many finch breeders believe about out-crossing, I understand feather mutations and hybridizing cannot be totally reversed. Surely it's a lot easier to maintain a sustainable population of
true normal/wild type finches, than it is to try and reproduce them back form birds containing multiple mutations within their genetic makup.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on these questions.

[arthur]

I understand feather mutations and hybridising cannot be reversed. [/b]

I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on these questions.

Don't quite know what you mean by 'reversed' . . but genotypically pure normals can be produced from mutations if the correct steps are followed

They cannot be produced no matter what steps are taken using hybrids

By logic the answer to your question is: HYBRIDS

And just to clarify and quantify . . The amount of 'damage' caused by feather mutations is NIL

I think we need to be very careful as finch breeders, that we do not lose the true normal/wild type finches to aviculture in Australia.

This of course is axiomatic

[vettepilot_6]

German Zoologists tried reversing Hybridised Horses to reproduce the extinct Tarpan horse...closest they have got is what is known is Hecks horse (who knows with more time)....so I guess it is possible to get close to original if some traits of original remain in different species

[POLAR GOULDIANS]

AAAAHH .
The age old art of mutation bashing returns.

The question is not where we can find pure finches.
But where we can find people who complain about the lack of them and at the same time are actively doing everything within their power to ensure that their own finches are PURE.
IE. Test breeding against known Recessive Mutations etc to ensure that the gene is not being carried. ( The only way to be certain without DNA testing ).

OK, Hands up all those who are doing the above.
PS. It's not me.

As Arthur has stated in another topic it is possible to obtain Normals from MUTATIONS.
And like he, I feel no guilt about keeping some of the beautiful Mutations, as well as a good stock of 'questionable' normals.

[finchbreeder]

Agree with both Arthur and Vetta. Hybrids are going to change the nature of the bird to something else. Mutations are going to change the look of the bird.
Sorry to upset the apple cart. But both situations occur in nature. The only difference an aviculturist makes is that by choosing to favour a particular type, we alter the percentages. Not what does or does not occur.
You can not make a bird mutate. Nature alone can do that. All you can do is choose to breed that bird/s or not.
You can not make birds hybridise. Only they can choose to do that or not. But you can encourage or discourage that by how you house them.
Education is the key. Educate people and they then make the decissions they believe are right. If they agree with you
but if they don't that is their choice.
LML

[jusdeb]

Really need to stop this anti mutation slanging . It makes us look less than friendly and it can be offensive to people keeping mutations .
There may be other ways to get a point across but opinions should not be shoved down a persons throat .

Post a photo of a mutation bird and the replies will be " I dont like mutations " or " its alright for a mutation " PLEASE its not very nice .

To answer the question given , I believe Hybrids are worse and it is not something I would want to do ...

[desertbirds]

Agree with both Arthur and Vetta. Hybrids are going to change the nature of the bird to something else. Mutations are going to change the look of the bird.

LML

Hybrids - NO ! Mistakes happen but its just a big NO !
Mutations can also change the nature and the phsical aspect of a bird. Blue Gouldians are weak, through selective breeding they are getting better but having bred blue backed Goulds from normals, they were weak . Yes you can produce normal looking birds from mutations but to suggest they are excactly the same as a wild type bird is a bit far fetched. Im not a mutation basher or currently a breeder of mutations.
When the question arises of how others view our hobby i`m just not sure how i feel about mutations. I can say though, that it`s these aspects of aviculture (mutations, hybrids) that have the zoo keepers, ornithology (is that a word ?) groups of the world looking slightly down on our hobby.Not saying its wrong or right but thats a fact.

[curlew]

if a human was to breed with a chimp what would we fill about the off spring? every bird we breed is a mutation we are all mutations in our socity people that are badly mutated normaly dont go on to reproduce how often do you see a mum with down sindrome pushing a pram. we don't incorrige this practice in our spices so why do we in our birds. our job as bird keepers is to protect these birds for coming generations not turn them in to one bird. we cant take mutations off those of you out there that want mutations or hybrids so stop taking puer breeds off us.

[desertbirds]

AAAAHH .
The age old art of mutation bashing returns.

No one is bashing ,its a forum with people putting foward views on finch keeping in general,that covers all aspects of the hobby.Without healthy debates and people having an opinion and their own interests, it would be a vey quiet, uninformative place to visit.

[jusdeb]

I just hope it doesn't divide the forum . It seems to be THE hot topic lately .

United we stand ..divided we fall . This would be a shame.

Mutual respect for other members whether they have mutations , normals , hookbills yes hookbills another " I dont like " reply getter ..it doesn't matter as we are all part of the forum and come here to share , learn and help .